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Rates

Nov 01, 2021 at 05:20 PM CST
+ 56 - 1
If we'd all put our foot down and settle for nothing less than $4.50 a mile i think we'd be able to handle this fuel hike. OK.... GO ON RESPONSES.
Replied on Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 08:50 PM CST
+ 4

Exactly, don't haul cheap freight and they will raise there rate

Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 07:33 AM CST
+ 4
It isn't just the fuel, tires are up 50%, shop rates are up 50%, and every other thing we need out on the road that was already overpriced is now ridiculous. Used truck prices are sky high, so it may be time to sell.
Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 08:23 AM CST
+ 1

Some companies had rather go broke slowly,rather than raise their rates.

Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 09:23 AM CST
+ 2
Quote: "It isn't just the fuel, tires are up 50%, shop rates are up 50%, and every other thing we need out on the road that was already overpriced is now ridiculous. Used truck prices are sky high, so it may be time to sell."

I know two people who did that, they had their trucks paid for so they parked them and took normal jobs, both were promoted to managers in a matter of weeks just based on the fact they showed up every day and got stuff done, both are now making a 100k a year and only putting in 40-50 hours a week. Zero college.
Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 09:24 AM CST
+ 1
Quote: "It isn't just the fuel, tires are up 50%, shop rates are up 50%, and every other thing we need out on the road that was already overpriced is now ridiculous. Used truck prices are sky high, so it may be time to sell."

If your tires are up 50%, your provider is r**ing you! Again if your shop is up 50% you are being r**ed. Even higher rates won't save you from yourself.

Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 10:19 AM CST
+ 4
Quote: "Exactly, don't haul cheap freight and they will raise there rate"

So my question to you all is, what is your description of cheap freight? Is $3/mile cheap freight? $2.75/mile? Do you know what your break even point is? What your set of drive tires cost you per mile? Steers? Fuel is just one part of the equation and right now, if you get 4mpg your fuel cost would be around 80-90 cents per mile. I know what our break even point is and how much we need to be profitable. I have since I sat down in this chair and we have run anywhere from 10-30 trucks every day at a profit. Yes $4/mile freight is great BUT where does the added freight cost go? Does it get paid by the freight fairy? Does uncle Joe write a check for the excess? It is my understanding that added costs get passed on to consumers! So, yes, it is AWESOME to make the high dollars for freight, BUT, doesn't it bother you just a little to know that the added costs for your $4.50/mile minimum will be passed on to those that you know that are not in the trucking industry? At some point I think we ALL need to be realistic and figure out how much is enough. I have been in this industry for 35+ years and I can tell you, with certainty that this is a phase and it could easily go the other way as fast as it comes to the high side! Find your customers, treat them fairly and take care of them and they will be with you when things swing the oposite direction.

Just saying.

Keith

ET Trucking.

Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 11:02 AM CST
+ 1
Quote: "So my question to you all is, what is your description of cheap freight? Is $3/mile cheap freight? $2.75/mile? Do you know what your break even point is? What your set of drive tires cost you per mile? Steers? Fuel is just one part of the equation and right now, if you get 4mpg your fuel cost would be around 80-90 cents per mile. I know what our break even point is and how much we need to be profitable. I have since I sat down in this chair and we have run anywhere from 10-30 trucks every day at a profit. Yes $4/mile freight is great BUT where does the added freight cost go? Does it get paid by the freight fairy? Does uncle Joe write a check for the excess? It is my understanding that added costs get passed on to consumers! So, yes, it is AWESOME to make the high dollars for freight, BUT, doesn't it bother you just a little to know that the added costs for your $4.50/mile minimum will be passed on to those that you know that are not in the trucking industry? At some point I think we ALL need to be realistic and figure out how much is enough. I have been in this industry for 35+ years and I can tell you, with certainty that this is a phase and it could easily go the other way as fast as it comes to the high side! Find your customers, treat them fairly and take care of them and they will be with you when things swing the oposite direction. Just saying. Keith ET Trucking."

Respectfully Ed it doesn’t bother me in the least to know that costs get passed on to the consumer, my vendors raise their rates with out sympathy all the time, turnabout is fair play, capitalism is all about maximizing profits. CEO’s of corporations are making roughly 500 times what they did prior to 1980, and none of them feel guilty about it, in fact I can’t think of any school of business that teaches their students to feel guilty about maximizing profits, in fact stockholders would sue a CEO for intentionaly leaving profits on the table.
Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 01:05 PM CST
+ 2
Quote: "Respectfully Ed it doesn’t bother me in the least to know that costs get passed on to the consumer, my vendors raise their rates with out sympathy all the time, turnabout is fair play, capitalism is all about maximizing profits. CEO’s of corporations are making roughly 500 times what they did prior to 1980, and none of them feel guilty about it, in fact I can’t think of any school of business that teaches their students to feel guilty about maximizing profits, in fact stockholders would sue a CEO for intentionaly leaving profits on the table."

Well I guess we agree to disagree. BTW, this is Keith.

There comes a time, when you work with a customer 52 weeks per year where you have to take your relationship with your customer into affect. If you do not have customers that you work with, fine, hold out for the as much money as possible, sit for 2-3 days waiting for a better load to come up. It will all come out in the wash. For my liking, I would like for myself and others to pay as little for our products as possible. Overpricing will price you out of business sooner or later. Just like hauling for not enough will put you out of business too!

Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 03:36 PM CST
Quote: "If your tires are up 50%, your provider is r**ing you! Again if your shop is up 50% you are being r**ed. Even higher rates won't save you from yourself."

In 2 years my mechanic went from $100 to $150/ hr. Other shops are as high as $214 in my area. Who in central Minnesota is cheaper and knows what they are doing? When a shop helper oil change kid gets $20/ hour someone has to pay. As far as tires go find me some X1 Mich wide base singles for the $850 I used to pay. When you show me how I am getting f'ed I'll take it up with my supplier. Online suppliers are advertising them for $1750. I'm guess I got a better price than most could. I'll give you an opportunity to make some money off my dumb ass. Since you can still get those X1s for 850, I'll pay you $1000 each for 8 new ones. Hell I'd bet you could sell dozens to me and all my stupid friends.
Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 04:19 PM CST
+ 2
The sad part is. 90 percent of the people just bitch. When it comes down to doing something about it. They won’t. There’s the problem.
Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 04:19 PM CST
Quote: "If your tires are up 50%, your provider is r**ing you! Again if your shop is up 50% you are being r**ed. Even higher rates won't save you from yourself."

How is it Michael's fault that tires are hard to come by and demand has driven the price up? Twin valley tire, one of the nations largest tire dealers, told me personally that many manufacturers are not making certain sizes right now, and the tires they are making, go directly to manufacturers because they are the biggest buyers. Seems that it would drive tire prices up and Micheal would have zero control over that. In my area, you need to schedule any repairs about 2 to 3 weeks out, that demand along with inflation and supply problems are driving the shop rates up.... again, nothing Micheal can do about that.
Replied on Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 09:17 PM CST
Yes sir. You are 100% right. We have all the risk and expense. Pardon the pun but we are literally in the driver seat.
Replied on Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 08:33 PM CST
Quote: "Well I guess we agree to disagree. BTW, this is Keith. There comes a time, when you work with a customer 52 weeks per year where you have to take your relationship with your customer into affect. If you do not have customers that you work with, fine, hold out for the as much money as possible, sit for 2-3 days waiting for a better load to come up. It will all come out in the wash. For my liking, I would like for myself and others to pay as little for our products as possible. Overpricing will price you out of business sooner or later. Just like hauling for not enough will put you out of business too!"

Sorry about the name mix up Keith but here is something to think about, look at the mega carriers that have the contracts sewed up at the ports, they tried that strategy of keeping the rates low thinking they would get owner operators to absorb the losses, well how’s that working out for them? You don’t see them putting their company trucks on it do you? Instead they hold press briefings and try to blame it on a driver shortage, LOL. If you don’t push rates up when times are good then there is nothing to cut when they go bad, so you are starting off the new cycle at a disadvantage.
Replied on Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 08:36 PM CST

Raising rates with your core customers is touchy. You don't want to loose the customer but you can't commit suicide by not covering expenses and maintaining a reasonable profit margin. Putting van freight on my walking floor used to be a regular thing. I backed away from it around 2015. Van rates went south and between company policies and regulations many wouldn't load the walking floor anymore. I have hauled eight loads in the last two weeks and five of the loads were van loads. Those rates are nearly double what they were in 2015.

I have heard the local Freightliner dealers are at $180.00 hour. My independent shop isn't working Saturdays anymore because he can't get parts as some dealers and parts houses aren't open late or on Saturday.

I also heard Freightliner has cut production by around 40%. If you order a new Freightliner today you won't get it until May 2023.

I just bought a pair of wide single tires to have on the rack. NOT a noticeable change in the price over the last couple of years. I ordered four wide base Alcoa wheels on Monday. On line from a business in a far away land. Fair price. They were delivered yesterday.

Replied on Sun, Nov 07, 2021 at 03:37 PM CST
The possible largest power only offerings ( don't want to name ) company offerings from phx to central tx, teams required on most loads. $1.40 - $1.60 for this weekend. Who in their right mind is doing this crap with $4 plus fuel? The loads are moving as they aren't being reposted. Art Pfluger
Replied on Tue, Nov 09, 2021 at 08:53 PM CST

Well, once again I must be doing it wrong again. I work with my steady customers for some increases, most of my shippers are by the hundred weight with FSC. keeps the deal fair. Those who don't wish to mess with FSC were kind enough to raise rates to help with increased costs to move the load. I use every means I can to shop the best fuel prices I can. I am usually in the $2.929-3.099 range as I write this.

I shop all parts carefully, try my best to shop locally. I do my own wrenching for everything I can. Local shop is $105 currently if I can't fix it myself. Does kinda mess up my free time some, but I'm still rolling, still paying myself a paycheck.

I find there is a serious glut of freight to be moved, take full advantge of the Ag Exemption. Run plenty of hours, plenty of loads. I think even with increased costs, I have been able to offset them with better rates. So Far, So Good.

today, load one 84 round trip, $380. load two round trip 128 $408. load three 28 miles $160, load four 22 miles $166, load five 166 miles round trip, $497, load six 142 RT miles $336. So you can make a good check if you just take care of their needs. Service counts.

Replied on Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 07:54 AM CST
Quote: "Well, once again I must be doing it wrong again. I work with my steady customers for some increases, most of my shippers are by the hundred weight with FSC. keeps the deal fair. Those who don't wish to mess with FSC were kind enough to raise rates to help with increased costs to move the load. I use every means I can to shop the best fuel prices I can. I am usually in the $2.929-3.099 range as I write this. I shop all parts carefully, try my best to shop locally. I do my own wrenching for everything I can. Local shop is $105 currently if I can't fix it myself. Does kinda mess up my free time some, but I'm still rolling, still paying myself a paycheck. I find there is a serious glut of freight to be moved, take full advantge of the Ag Exemption. Run plenty of hours, plenty of loads. I think even with increased costs, I have been able to offset them with better rates. So Far, So Good. today, load one 84 round trip, $380. load two round trip 128 $408. load three 28 miles $160, load four 22 miles $166, load five 166 miles round trip, $497, load six 142 RT miles $336. So you can make a good check if you just take care of their needs. Service counts. "

Well, that definitely explains the National driver shortage.
Replied on Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 07:54 AM CST
Quote: "Some companies had rather go broke slowly,rather than raise their rates. "

True
Replied on Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 07:30 AM CST
Quote: "Well, once again I must be doing it wrong again. I work with my steady customers for some increases, most of my shippers are by the hundred weight with FSC. keeps the deal fair. Those who don't wish to mess with FSC were kind enough to raise rates to help with increased costs to move the load. I use every means I can to shop the best fuel prices I can. I am usually in the $2.929-3.099 range as I write this. I shop all parts carefully, try my best to shop locally. I do my own wrenching for everything I can. Local shop is $105 currently if I can't fix it myself. Does kinda mess up my free time some, but I'm still rolling, still paying myself a paycheck. I find there is a serious glut of freight to be moved, take full advantge of the Ag Exemption. Run plenty of hours, plenty of loads. I think even with increased costs, I have been able to offset them with better rates. So Far, So Good. today, load one 84 round trip, $380. load two round trip 128 $408. load three 28 miles $160, load four 22 miles $166, load five 166 miles round trip, $497, load six 142 RT miles $336. So you can make a good check if you just take care of their needs. Service counts. "

Oh my. Here's another one. If you add all that up, and divide that by a 16 hour day ( because you claim you have to use ag exemption to do it) that is really nothing I'd be bragging about on a public forum. And just to educate me, what is your cost per mile to run 500 dollar steer tires, compared to 850 dollar michelins? I'd bet it's cheaper per mile to run the michelins 120k up front, then throw them on a trailer for another 60k as opposed to a 500 dollar tire that does 90k then immediately go to the garbage. And is what card or app are you using to find 2.90 fuel? Cheapest I've seen in your area is 3.13 through mudflap and it's is comparable.
Replied on Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 07:50 AM CST
Im very glad to see this conversation i started. I agree with about 99% of what everyone is saying. Now like i read in one comment, we need to all take the stand together. I like the break down on costs i see from everyone. ✌✌🇺🇸
Replied on Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 11:51 AM CST
Quote: "Sorry about the name mix up Keith but here is something to think about, look at the mega carriers that have the contracts sewed up at the ports, they tried that strategy of keeping the rates low thinking they would get owner operators to absorb the losses, well how’s that working out for them? You don’t see them putting their company trucks on it do you? Instead they hold press briefings and try to blame it on a driver shortage, LOL. If you don’t push rates up when times are good then there is nothing to cut when they go bad, so you are starting off the new cycle at a disadvantage."

I am not disagreeing with the fact that rates should be higher and are getting higher, BUT I am saying that with 52 week per year customers, you can not price yourself out of freight. We work with the same customers week in and week out to make sure their freight gets moved in a timely fashion. While others were whining about poor rates before the boom, we were making money daily, providing the same great service day after day.

I have been in the trucking business since 1987 and in an office roll since 2008 and can tell you with all certainty that I have seen as many, if not more bust times as we have seen boom times! To want to raise your rates to the top dollar with week in and week out customers is suicide! You will price yourself out of work and leave yourself wishing you would have sharpened your pencil and made a decent amount of money while preserving your customer relationship. With all due respect, We will continue to move along, making a very good living while not going over board and trying to make every penny that is possible. BTW, most of our customers, we are 10-12 year working relationships with.

Let's just say it like this, what works for one company may not work for another. I guess just do what works for you and don't worry about what everyone else does.

Replied on Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 12:58 PM CST
+ 1
Quote: "Oh my. Here's another one. If you add all that up, and divide that by a 16 hour day ( because you claim you have to use ag exemption to do it) that is really nothing I'd be bragging about on a public forum. And just to educate me, what is your cost per mile to run 500 dollar steer tires, compared to 850 dollar michelins? I'd bet it's cheaper per mile to run the michelins 120k up front, then throw them on a trailer for another 60k as opposed to a 500 dollar tire that does 90k then immediately go to the garbage. And is what card or app are you using to find 2.90 fuel? Cheapest I've seen in your area is 3.13 through mudflap and it's is comparable."

I got Michelins last time, were in the $500 range on the steers, drivers were like $1097 I think. Now no special deals on them. So I tried something new, and I like the tires i'm now running. The trailer tires about 3 seasons old. Held up very well to highway and gravel road use. Well over 200,000 miles. I did no better with Michelins the time b4. So I bought them for drives and steers. Sometimes you need to explore things a little. Bought Nexan tires for my pickup, and I believe they are going to out mile the last set of Michelins I had on there.

And I use Mudflap a lot, and I have a oil jobber that treats me very good when prices are right. And yes fuel was up about .15 from week b4.

And I am happy with my rates, more would always be better, but these are not a disaster. I have been able to ask for extra, and many of those I haul for have been willing to give me the extra. Whats wrong with that. I comfortably pay for all the expenses for my Tractor and trailers. I paymyself like a driver, and I have never missed a paycheck. So cost of doing business is fine with me. I grumble at Insurance rates, fuel etc. just like everyine else. These times just make you work smarter, and yea harder.

Replied on Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:44 PM CST
Quote: "I am not disagreeing with the fact that rates should be higher and are getting higher, BUT I am saying that with 52 week per year customers, you can not price yourself out of freight. We work with the same customers week in and week out to make sure their freight gets moved in a timely fashion. While others were whining about poor rates before the boom, we were making money daily, providing the same great service day after day. I have been in the trucking business since 1987 and in an office roll since 2008 and can tell you with all certainty that I have seen as many, if not more bust times as we have seen boom times! To want to raise your rates to the top dollar with week in and week out customers is suicide! You will price yourself out of work and leave yourself wishing you would have sharpened your pencil and made a decent amount of money while preserving your customer relationship. With all due respect, We will continue to move along, making a very good living while not going over board and trying to make every penny that is possible. BTW, most of our customers, we are 10-12 year working relationships with. Let's just say it like this, what works for one company may not work for another. I guess just do what works for you and don't worry about what everyone else does."

I don't disagree with any of that. But I definitely see Dave's point. If I price gouge my customers, I don't deserve to have them, and if they expect me to run at a loss just because we've done business together for a long time, then they don't deserve me. So it's a balance because we need each other. There's just one thing that always frustrates me and maybe it's because I'm looking at it from the wrong perspective, and maybe you can help me out. Why is the truck always the point that must flex to save everyone else? We always must "sharpen our pencils" and it turns into a race to the bottom. We modify our equipment to fit in tight outdated facilities. We "adapt" our log books to accommodate facilities with bankers hours. It seems to me that our ability to adapt is causing our own problems. My biggest question that is a side not of what I just explained, why is it that when an average person looks at a business and sees a beautiful groomed lawn, nice landscaping, gorgeous masonry work and a classy and functional office, that person thinks , wow, they must do a great and professional job. But if the average person, or even people in trucking look at a classy 2013 glider owner op specd, coupled up to a nice timpte with a little stainless steel and all aluminum, we say, wow, they are inefficient and don't run cheap enough? I'm not looking for a fight and not saying my shippers should pay for a show quality rig by any means. Just thinking out loud. Happy veterans day everyone
Replied on Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 08:37 PM CST
+ 1
Quote: "I don't disagree with any of that. But I definitely see Dave's point. If I price gouge my customers, I don't deserve to have them, and if they expect me to run at a loss just because we've done business together for a long time, then they don't deserve me. So it's a balance because we need each other. There's just one thing that always frustrates me and maybe it's because I'm looking at it from the wrong perspective, and maybe you can help me out. Why is the truck always the point that must flex to save everyone else? We always must "sharpen our pencils" and it turns into a race to the bottom. We modify our equipment to fit in tight outdated facilities. We "adapt" our log books to accommodate facilities with bankers hours. It seems to me that our ability to adapt is causing our own problems. My biggest question that is a side not of what I just explained, why is it that when an average person looks at a business and sees a beautiful groomed lawn, nice landscaping, gorgeous masonry work and a classy and functional office, that person thinks , wow, they must do a great and professional job. But if the average person, or even people in trucking look at a classy 2013 glider owner op specd, coupled up to a nice timpte with a little stainless steel and all aluminum, we say, wow, they are inefficient and don't run cheap enough? I'm not looking for a fight and not saying my shippers should pay for a show quality rig by any means. Just thinking out loud. Happy veterans day everyone"

Ed is a decent guy I like hearing his opinions, however I find his position to be flawed in this instance since trucking is a hyper competitive environment, it’s impossible for the trucker to price gouge with tens of thousands of carriers in the market, the driver retention and turnover issue provides evidence of this.
Replied on Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 08:53 PM CST
+ 1
One of the main problems I see with rates is transparency between the Shipper/Broker and the Carrier. Like Trump said “ Truckers just want to be treated fairly”. Just my opinion.
Replied on Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 08:20 AM CST
Quote: "Well I guess we agree to disagree. BTW, this is Keith. There comes a time, when you work with a customer 52 weeks per year where you have to take your relationship with your customer into affect. If you do not have customers that you work with, fine, hold out for the as much money as possible, sit for 2-3 days waiting for a better load to come up. It will all come out in the wash. For my liking, I would like for myself and others to pay as little for our products as possible. Overpricing will price you out of business sooner or later. Just like hauling for not enough will put you out of business too!"

I will tell you this...in my opinion... You gouge the small companies that are struggling over and over with inflated transportation rates, whether its a greedy broker or a carrier that is seizing the opportunites... once this all levels out... the consumers and small businesses won't forget the over zealous greed from any and all aspects of this unfortunate situation. I've had some of my small customers struggling to move loads that the freight they were hauling cost less than the transportation costs.

If you don't present integrity and actually try to build relationships with your everyday contacts from customer, carriers, or just your neighbors, you have nothing... period. Gripe me out, rack me over the coals....whatever...I know us as a Nation have this "bend others over mentality" right now and it's sickening.

Replied on Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 08:38 AM CST
Quote: "I will tell you this...in my opinion... You gouge the small companies that are struggling over and over with inflated transportation rates, whether its a greedy broker or a carrier that is seizing the opportunites... once this all levels out... the consumers and small businesses won't forget the over zealous greed from any and all aspects of this unfortunate situation. I've had some of my small customers struggling to move loads that the freight they were hauling cost less than the transportation costs. If you don't present integrity and actually try to build relationships with your everyday contacts from customer, carriers, or just your neighbors, you have nothing... period. Gripe me out, rack me over the coals....whatever...I know us as a Nation have this "bend others over mentality" right now and it's sickening. "

I haven't heard one person on this forum advocate in favor of price gouging. I'm curious why it is acceptable for a business to pass along their expenses to their customers as expenses rise but if a trucking company does the same thing it is considered price gouging when in reality all we want to do is attempt to maintain the same profit margin as before. I know for me personally I will definitely gross more income than last year but I certainly will not profit anymore and my cost of living has gone up. I've heard plenty of people complain about struggling to move freight but hours haven't changed weekends are still out of the question for loading and unloading, after 5:00 at most places is still out of the question. it's not always about pay when it comes to getting the freight moved .
Replied on Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 01:12 PM CST
+ 1
Quote: "I will tell you this...in my opinion... You gouge the small companies that are struggling over and over with inflated transportation rates, whether its a greedy broker or a carrier that is seizing the opportunites... once this all levels out... the consumers and small businesses won't forget the over zealous greed from any and all aspects of this unfortunate situation. I've had some of my small customers struggling to move loads that the freight they were hauling cost less than the transportation costs. If you don't present integrity and actually try to build relationships with your everyday contacts from customer, carriers, or just your neighbors, you have nothing... period. Gripe me out, rack me over the coals....whatever...I know us as a Nation have this "bend others over mentality" right now and it's sickening. "

Please tell me in detail how you would get away with price gouging when your surrounded by tens of thousands of competitors who keep your prices in check. If anyone is getting price gouged it’s the drivers who are denied hourly wages and overtime pay.
Replied on Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 03:28 PM CST
Quote: "I haven't heard one person on this forum advocate in favor of price gouging. I'm curious why it is acceptable for a business to pass along their expenses to their customers as expenses rise but if a trucking company does the same thing it is considered price gouging when in reality all we want to do is attempt to maintain the same profit margin as before. I know for me personally I will definitely gross more income than last year but I certainly will not profit anymore and my cost of living has gone up. I've heard plenty of people complain about struggling to move freight but hours haven't changed weekends are still out of the question for loading and unloading, after 5:00 at most places is still out of the question. it's not always about pay when it comes to getting the freight moved ."

I'm saying the industry as a whole. It all rolls downhill one way or another. Let's face it, at the end of the day everyone wants to be able to make a decent living and put food on the table for their loved ones...and stay in business. It's a struggle for everyone and I get it, but I also have watched forums on social media sites where some quotes for lanes, etc is insanity...or you have brokers such as myself trying to reap $300 plus profits off one load here or there. Again, I get the entire margin thing for everyone, but the way I look at it, being fair across the board for my customers, and the carriers I work with reaps more benefits at the end of the day than ripping someone's head off.... on either said of the supply chain.

Replied on Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 12:31 PM CST
+ 1
Quote: "I'm saying the industry as a whole. It all rolls downhill one way or another. Let's face it, at the end of the day everyone wants to be able to make a decent living and put food on the table for their loved ones...and stay in business. It's a struggle for everyone and I get it, but I also have watched forums on social media sites where some quotes for lanes, etc is insanity...or you have brokers such as myself trying to reap $300 plus profits off one load here or there. Again, I get the entire margin thing for everyone, but the way I look at it, being fair across the board for my customers, and the carriers I work with reaps more benefits at the end of the day than ripping someone's head off.... on either said of the supply chain. "

When you say the industry as a whole, can you point to any newspaper articles showing that trucking companies are raking in windfall profits? You talk about the truckers price gouging, yet you can not provide any evidence of it?
Replied on Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 04:23 PM CST
Quote: "I don't disagree with any of that. But I definitely see Dave's point. If I price gouge my customers, I don't deserve to have them, and if they expect me to run at a loss just because we've done business together for a long time, then they don't deserve me. So it's a balance because we need each other. There's just one thing that always frustrates me and maybe it's because I'm looking at it from the wrong perspective, and maybe you can help me out. Why is the truck always the point that must flex to save everyone else? We always must "sharpen our pencils" and it turns into a race to the bottom. We modify our equipment to fit in tight outdated facilities. We "adapt" our log books to accommodate facilities with bankers hours. It seems to me that our ability to adapt is causing our own problems. My biggest question that is a side not of what I just explained, why is it that when an average person looks at a business and sees a beautiful groomed lawn, nice landscaping, gorgeous masonry work and a classy and functional office, that person thinks , wow, they must do a great and professional job. But if the average person, or even people in trucking look at a classy 2013 glider owner op specd, coupled up to a nice timpte with a little stainless steel and all aluminum, we say, wow, they are inefficient and don't run cheap enough? I'm not looking for a fight and not saying my shippers should pay for a show quality rig by any means. Just thinking out loud. Happy veterans day everyone"

Well said, I always enjoy reading your (and Dave's) opinions on these topics. Since I just sold my truck and wll be taking a little time off until the new one comes in, I look forward to more time in here.

Why is it when a broker wants to keep the rates down, they say it's a supply and demand issue. Plenty of trucks equals lower rates, but when the reverse happens, the carriers are suddenly gouging everyone? I think many brokers look at their relationships with carriers backwards. When they talk about servicing their customers, the are speaking about shippers. I believe the carrier is as as much of a customer to the broker as the shipper. I say that because I can move product for anyone, you want my service and be able to make some money off of the transaction, you need to earn it, otherwise, I'll provide my service to someone who will. Let's face it, without carriers the brokers wouldn't have a job, and the shippers wouldn't have a way to get their products to market. I also believe the entity with the least skin in the game shouldn't tell anybody what "fair" is.

Dave and Dale, if you ever find yourselves in my neighborhood, give me a call, I'd enjoy solving the world's problems over a meal!

Replied on Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 04:24 PM CST
+ 1

One more observation. Why is it that in nearly all, if not all segments of trucking except hoppers the negotiated rate is rate plus fuel surcharge?

Isn't a hopper equally as specialized as a liquid tank? It takes special infrastructure to load or unload one and there isn't as much freight for them as general commodities. So, why don't the rates reflect the specialization of the equipment? I see dry van rates higher than some of these hopper rates.

Can I get an A-men?

Replied on Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 10:16 AM CST
+ 1

I have alot of friends in the livestock hauling business and a couple that broker cow haulers. The normal rate is 4.25/mile on 50,000 and prorate up from that the more weight they add. I have a friend that dispatches cow trucks and he is having a hard time finding trucks even after offering 5.00/mile and prorating up from that. So my question is why isn't this happening in the grain hauling business. I know I'll hear about how the farmers are out here after harvest is done, and the brokers are taking all the profits. Don't mean to start a big deal with this, just a thought on this.

Replied on Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 07:53 PM CST

I am a new owner operator. I have two trucks. It costs me $103,000 a year for insurance for both trucks. $385.00 per day. And a thousand dollars a day for fuel. So my truck has to bring in $1,385 per day. And I have no truck payment. Now a owner that has a payment of $1500. Per month is paying $69.00 per day. For a total of $1,454.00. So based on a 261 work days per year that rounds out to $379,494.00 per year for two trucks. So this is for starters they are real cost and other fixed expenses that are not even mentioned that most definitely need to be included. Now I do realize other drivers that have experience do not have the insurance company as a partner. But the fact is these are real expensive. No bullshit. It was a question is do I want to educate myself so that I can make a decent living or do I want to make corporate America richer. You decide.

Replied on Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 07:48 AM CST
+ 1
Quote: "I am a new owner operator. I have two trucks. It costs me $103,000 a year for insurance for both trucks. $385.00 per day. And a thousand dollars a day for fuel. So my truck has to bring in $1,385 per day. And I have no truck payment. Now a owner that has a payment of $1500. Per month is paying $69.00 per day. For a total of $1,454.00. So based on a 261 work days per year that rounds out to $379,494.00 per year for two trucks. So this is for starters they are real cost and other fixed expenses that are not even mentioned that most definitely need to be included. Now I do realize other drivers that have experience do not have the insurance company as a partner. But the fact is these are real expensive. No bullshit. It was a question is do I want to educate myself so that I can make a decent living or do I want to make corporate America richer. You decide."

Well, we won't have to worry about you under bidding any loads you can't afford it

Replied on Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 05:00 PM CST
Quote: "One more observation. Why is it that in nearly all, if not all segments of trucking except hoppers the negotiated rate is rate plus fuel surcharge? Isn't a hopper equally as specialized as a liquid tank? It takes special infrastructure to load or unload one and there isn't as much freight for them as general commodities. So, why don't the rates reflect the specialization of the equipment? I see dry van rates higher than some of these hopper rates. Can I get an A-men?"

Fuel surcharge usually applies to long term contracts, not spot freight.
Replied on Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 05:00 PM CST
Quote: "I am a new owner operator. I have two trucks. It costs me $103,000 a year for insurance for both trucks. $385.00 per day. And a thousand dollars a day for fuel. So my truck has to bring in $1,385 per day. And I have no truck payment. Now a owner that has a payment of $1500. Per month is paying $69.00 per day. For a total of $1,454.00. So based on a 261 work days per year that rounds out to $379,494.00 per year for two trucks. So this is for starters they are real cost and other fixed expenses that are not even mentioned that most definitely need to be included. Now I do realize other drivers that have experience do not have the insurance company as a partner. But the fact is these are real expensive. No bullshit. It was a question is do I want to educate myself so that I can make a decent living or do I want to make corporate America richer. You decide."

Are you hauling nuclear weapons? I've never heard of such a high insurance rate.
Replied on Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 09:10 AM CST
Welcome to Florida
Replied on Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 09:10 AM CST
Quote: "I'm saying the industry as a whole. It all rolls downhill one way or another. Let's face it, at the end of the day everyone wants to be able to make a decent living and put food on the table for their loved ones...and stay in business. It's a struggle for everyone and I get it, but I also have watched forums on social media sites where some quotes for lanes, etc is insanity...or you have brokers such as myself trying to reap $300 plus profits off one load here or there. Again, I get the entire margin thing for everyone, but the way I look at it, being fair across the board for my customers, and the carriers I work with reaps more benefits at the end of the day than ripping someone's head off.... on either said of the supply chain. "

I don't disagree with what you said. But I don't see price gouging happening on a large scale on the trucker side. Maybe it's happening more than I'm aware of, or maybe it's happening more in certain areas? I can only trust what I see with my own eyes, not the internet. I've had people ask for quotes and turn down 3 dollars per mile @ 58000 pounds of payload on 300 mile hauls. That means they are getting it done cheaper. Dave is right, the supply chain is messed up but trucking is still super competitive. If someone asks me to deadhead back and forth for them, it's not price gouging to charge a round trip rate. I personally haven't changed my rates for my main customer in 3 years, but if you called me and asked for help on a project, it's going to be a high quote because number one, I have to reschedule with my main customer and number 2 I've been crazy busy for a year and a half and leaving Sunday afternoons is getting old and it's going to cost ya. Trucking rates are definitely up, but so are trucking costs. I take it personally when the country is silent over ADM, AGP, Cargill, CHS and Gavilon, taking in record quarterly profit over and over while paying truckers sub 2 dollar per mile freight for years, and we are accused of price gouging for passing on our expenses? If you double the rates some of those companies used to pay it still wouldn't be 3 dollars per loaded mile. They are the reason that smaller shippers get charged more. I'm not saying trucking companies aren't taking advantage of people, and if they are shame on them, but let's not blame high expenses on the truck. It's a weird year and I hope all of us small companies can hang on there. Good luck to you and I appreciate your point of view, this is just my opinion on the matter.
Replied on Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 01:31 PM CST
Quote: "Fuel surcharge usually applies to long term contracts, not spot freight."

That's not been my experience, however if you're considering hopper freight as part of the spot rate market, you made my point that hopper freight is a little too cheap. Spot rates are always more than long term contracts...

Replied on Wed, Nov 24, 2021 at 01:31 PM CST
Quote: "I am a new owner operator. I have two trucks. It costs me $103,000 a year for insurance for both trucks. $385.00 per day. And a thousand dollars a day for fuel. So my truck has to bring in $1,385 per day. And I have no truck payment. Now a owner that has a payment of $1500. Per month is paying $69.00 per day. For a total of $1,454.00. So based on a 261 work days per year that rounds out to $379,494.00 per year for two trucks. So this is for starters they are real cost and other fixed expenses that are not even mentioned that most definitely need to be included. Now I do realize other drivers that have experience do not have the insurance company as a partner. But the fact is these are real expensive. No bullshit. It was a question is do I want to educate myself so that I can make a decent living or do I want to make corporate America richer. You decide."

With costs like that, there's no way I'd be an owner operator, or have two trucks, unless you have a really good paying contract that will carry you through to cheaper costs. Even if you don't have equipment payments, shouldn't you include recouping your cost to purchase the equipment in your figures?

Replied on Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 07:48 AM CST
Quote: "That's not been my experience, however if you're considering hopper freight as part of the spot rate market, you made my point that hopper freight is a little too cheap. Spot rates are always more than long term contracts..."

Spot rates move up and down sometimes they are higher other times lower. If spot is lower then the contracted freight moves over to the spot market. That drives down the contract rate. They usually track very close to each other. The spot rate typically doesn't require a fuel surcharge because the rate is negotiated every time.
Replied on Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:00 PM CST
Quote: "I don't disagree with any of that. But I definitely see Dave's point. If I price gouge my customers, I don't deserve to have them, and if they expect me to run at a loss just because we've done business together for a long time, then they don't deserve me. So it's a balance because we need each other. There's just one thing that always frustrates me and maybe it's because I'm looking at it from the wrong perspective, and maybe you can help me out. Why is the truck always the point that must flex to save everyone else? We always must "sharpen our pencils" and it turns into a race to the bottom. We modify our equipment to fit in tight outdated facilities. We "adapt" our log books to accommodate facilities with bankers hours. It seems to me that our ability to adapt is causing our own problems. My biggest question that is a side not of what I just explained, why is it that when an average person looks at a business and sees a beautiful groomed lawn, nice landscaping, gorgeous masonry work and a classy and functional office, that person thinks , wow, they must do a great and professional job. But if the average person, or even people in trucking look at a classy 2013 glider owner op specd, coupled up to a nice timpte with a little stainless steel and all aluminum, we say, wow, they are inefficient and don't run cheap enough? I'm not looking for a fight and not saying my shippers should pay for a show quality rig by any means. Just thinking out loud. Happy veterans day everyone"

Dale, if you are running at a loss with a constant customer, then you need to leave that customer and find a new one! I will tell you with all honesty, our customers have asked us for updated rates! I have sat down, did my homework and came up with rates that will work for all sides. I did not look at what refers are making this week and say "I can make this much with a refer so that is the amount I want"! It is like compairing apples to oranges!

I have said in every post that you will find my name on, that we have consistantly made a profit while providing excellent service! I have also said that the service we provide is directly connected to the reason we garner our profitable rates. All I can tell you, and I have said it before, is that do what works for you and your company and you will be fine! If that equation involves a fancy new pete and new Timpte trailer every 3 years, then so be it. You do you and hopefully all the success the world has to offer will be bestowed upon you! BUT don't come back whining WHEN not if the markets change and freight gets tough again!

All the best to you and much success!

Replied on Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:01 PM CST
Quote: "I have alot of friends in the livestock hauling business and a couple that broker cow haulers. The normal rate is 4.25/mile on 50,000 and prorate up from that the more weight they add. I have a friend that dispatches cow trucks and he is having a hard time finding trucks even after offering 5.00/mile and prorating up from that. So my question is why isn't this happening in the grain hauling business. I know I'll hear about how the farmers are out here after harvest is done, and the brokers are taking all the profits. Don't mean to start a big deal with this, just a thought on this."

Check into this before you put to much stake in this. Many livestock haulers are doing 4.50-5/LOADED mile and have many deadhead miles. I have never wanted to haul cattle, but did haul live haul turkeys for 7 years and can tell you that we were empty half of the miles.

Replied on Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:01 PM CST
Quote: "I will tell you this...in my opinion... You gouge the small companies that are struggling over and over with inflated transportation rates, whether its a greedy broker or a carrier that is seizing the opportunites... once this all levels out... the consumers and small businesses won't forget the over zealous greed from any and all aspects of this unfortunate situation. I've had some of my small customers struggling to move loads that the freight they were hauling cost less than the transportation costs. If you don't present integrity and actually try to build relationships with your everyday contacts from customer, carriers, or just your neighbors, you have nothing... period. Gripe me out, rack me over the coals....whatever...I know us as a Nation have this "bend others over mentality" right now and it's sickening. "

I agree with you 100%!

Replied on Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 12:50 PM CST
We all need to do something as a group of O/O or they are going to push us all out
Replied on Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 02:55 PM CST
Quote: "Dale, if you are running at a loss with a constant customer, then you need to leave that customer and find a new one! I will tell you with all honesty, our customers have asked us for updated rates! I have sat down, did my homework and came up with rates that will work for all sides. I did not look at what refers are making this week and say "I can make this much with a refer so that is the amount I want"! It is like compairing apples to oranges! I have said in every post that you will find my name on, that we have consistantly made a profit while providing excellent service! I have also said that the service we provide is directly connected to the reason we garner our profitable rates. All I can tell you, and I have said it before, is that do what works for you and your company and you will be fine! If that equation involves a fancy new pete and new Timpte trailer every 3 years, then so be it. You do you and hopefully all the success the world has to offer will be bestowed upon you! BUT don't come back whining WHEN not if the markets change and freight gets tough again! All the best to you and much success!"

I'm trying to figure out where we disagree?? And where you get the impression I'm running at a loss?? Or where I'm buying a new Pete every 3 years?? I've got an 03 379 with 2041000 miles on her. And she still looks great. I don't disagree with 99 percent of your points. Im not in business to kiss any big company's butt, and I wouldn't be here if I was losing money. I also haven't left pulling a hopper or abandoned any of my companies, so there will be no whining to come back. All I've said in this thread is that 1. Nobody cares when huge companies price gouge the truck. And 2. It's my opinion that trucking is too competitive to price gouge on a large scale on behalf of the truck. I'm not denying that it's happening in cases. But with our expenses being so much higher, what rate is considered price gouging? I'm not an arrogant person but the one thing I have to offer is that NOBODY is more transparent than me with my customers. I know what I need per running mile or per hour, and I'll gladly show previous and upcoming connecting loads to my customers to verify to the customer why the rate is what it is. So, I don't understand where we disagree. I have nothing against you or your company, I've heard good things and I've even reached out for help on a project before. I always look forward to your posts and enjoy discussions with you.